NSW Formula States
15. Dec, 2008
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20 Responses to “NSW Formula States”
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Correction and apologies to Barry Fawkes who was in fact 3rd in the FE+ division, but was overlooked at the prize giving.
results have just been updated ;)
Hi all, need some help.
Not sure i understand the system where FE+ sailors get higher overall results for finishing 1 lap in 15 to 20 knots, than sailors who are attempting to finish two laps, the second of which is blowing 115 to 120 knots.
In race 2 where the conditions went nuclear after the first lap. Many 2 lap competitors were at the top mark or even on their way down to the bottom mark on lap 2, when the wind kicked in and forced them to abandon the race. At this time some of the FE+ guys were just finishing their first lap.
Is it right under such extreme circumstances to have a system which compares the performance of sailors racing in two different categories? I understand that finishing the race is imperative to being scored. Yet we are all not doing the same race.
I’m a great supporter of FE+, love Bretts’ idea so much i introduced it into the Greek Formula season. FE+ is the reason numbers of Formula sailors have been increasing. However, we had exactly this issue with the Greek fleet when FE+ sailors were being scored in a direct comparison of performance with those racing the open category.
Any clarification would be appreciated.
Probably sounds like sour grapes. And i’m not trying to lessen or take away from the great results and achievements of the FE+ guys. But i just can’t see how the performances of people racing in two different categories can be compared.
P.S Had a great time, and am glad to be back on the water. :-)
From a position of safety, I thought the weekend was interesting to say the least.
The dismounts in race 2 were only exceeded by Sam Parker’s dismount in race 1. I think Sam needs to talk to Pykie about how to extend the nose of his board, to allow for that 1 extra step.
For a look at a winning action go to the Marmong site at http://sites.google.com/site/marmong-point-sc/Home/spring-regatta-208/spring-regatta-2008-gallery/spring-regatta-2008-gallery-p2/nsw-state-formula-championships-2008
2nd pic down on the right. A bit of pent up jubilation there hey Brett?
Fortunately huey smiled on us at the end of the day and blessed us with 2 great races.
Once again I picked the wrong day to be in the boat. All they got to do Sunday was loll about trying to look good, something I need a bit of practice at.
Some great results especially from the local boys, and great support, considering close to half the field were locals.
Now if we can just figure out how to keep the winds lighter and get Sam Fawkes to the top. :)
I definitely think ‘dismount of the day’ had to go to Brett in Race 3 … closely followed by Brett’s second dismount in Race 4.
I don’t want to shame the guy but he was on a 9.0m sail in both those races …
But at least he remembered to sign-on.
Going back to Jason’s comment. I see the problem. But I think it is only noticeable in particular circumstances—like this past w-end, where the FE+ fleet manage to finish and then all hell break loose and some sailors in the open division do not finish. In these cases, the FE+ can upset the point score of some of the open division sailors, since the FE+ gets in the middle.
From the FE+ perspective, however, it is nice to be compared, in some way or another, to the open division, so you don’t feel completely like a different species and you get motivated to improve and aim at getting in the open division the next season. we may also need to take into account that finishing 1 lap in 20+ kts demands much more effort from an FE+ than from open division sailor. Just being able to finish a race without falling can be an achievement—in the 20kt NE at Jarvis there were at least two FE+ guys falling in the downwind leg in each race.
I guess here there is a trade-off; either we separate the divisions completely and make the FE a different experience, or we put up with the rare cases where the FE+ gets in the way and make the newcomers feel that they are more part of the action.
Hi Tristan, I agree 100% with what you have written. I am in Formula today, and it is a big part of my life because FE+ was there for me. It helped me feel like part of the whole, as opposed to feeling like a separate species. So yes I understand and agree whole heartedly with you.
My post was not meant to sound like I’m trying to alienate completely the FE+ guys from the open fleet. My question was more about the comparison on the score sheet.
Let me try and be more clear. For example, 32 guys (in total) register to race. In this instance, 24 open fleet competitors, and 8 for FE+. Yet, with 24 competitors in the open fleet a DNF earned us 33 points.
If the open fleet DNF’s were scored as total number of category competitors plus one.(24+1=25). We could have had a system where open fleet DNF’s were scored, for instance in this case, as 25 points.
The FE+ guys who rightly and justly should be made to feel in sync with the main fleet could have exactly what they have now. Two separate score sheets. The first of which gives you your total overall results in FE+ with total points in this case being 9. Then an overall points with the main fleet where FE+ competitors total points would be 24+8+1=33.
Something to think about could be where an open fleet sailor who has a DNF, could be given total number of “”"open fleet competitors plus one”"”" And FE+ sailors who have a DNF be given total number of “”"combined fleet plus one”"”"
So i guess i’ve completely confused everyone now, :-( Not my intention. Sorry.
And Tristen,,, thanks so much for your hospitality over the weekend. It was great. The food and a hot shower were 1st class. Thanks!
Jason,
It pains me significantly to admit that I agree with you.
I think that this is particularly important for the forthcoming Nationals where we dont want Open Fleet results tainted as a result of inclusion of the FE+ fleet.
I do not think it is fair to ask Brett for changes, but not suggest a solution, and then actively support the outcome.
So, in an effort to ensure this does not happen, I will offer to assist “normalise” the results of our events so that we can produce both sets of results in a fair and equitable manner.
Sunday afternoon looks good for Botany, see you all there.
JB
Hi John, It pains me even more knowing that i’ve caused you pain, and i’m sure me raising the whole painful topic is causing everyone a huge pain,,,,,,, in the Ar$#.
To all who now have that uncomfortable pain in the,,,,,,, please accept my humble apology.
;-)
When I first read the comments, I was confused. After a second reading, I am still confused, but at a much higher level :)
Jokes aside, I think Jason’s reasoning for the DNF’s makes sense. Let John do the numbers / normalisation.
Look forward to seeing you all in syd, and see the second round of the state of origin in the open division ;)
I have done the numbers and as expected there are some winners and some losers.
There is no impact at all until 12th spot (A Woodrow up 3)
Jason – You are up 2 from 19 to 17th, deadheating with Bruce Healey but getting ahead on countback).
JB
My intention was not to climb above anyone on the score sheet or to be placed higher or lower.
Just as Fe+ guys need to feel part of the whole, and be able to compare their performances with the main fleet. Giving them a sense of worth and achievement. So too do the “”"Tail enders of the main fleet”"” need the same fortification of worth and achievement. I race to get better and feel like i’m making improvement. To set goals and then set about achieving my targets. Just as we all do at some level.
My initial raising of this subject was to bring attention to the fact that in giving direct comparison/recognition of the FE+ sailors’ efforts in order to include and encourage, unintentionally the efforts of us tail enders as we call ourselves were being overlooked.
As i said before, i regret and apologize for even bringing this up at all.
Jason,
I dont think anyone took any of your comments as trying to get a better position in last w-end. Hence, there is no need to appologise. I think it is a valid point: trying to clarify how things are and explore if there may be a better way of benchmarking the two classes. Dont feel bad mate.
I have done the overall results this way on purpose. The reason being that it encourages finishing, and punishes DNF, regardless of excuses.
It also demonstrates who in the FE+ should probable more to the open fleet and who in the Open Fleets should move to the FE+ fleet. (mostly from not finishing every race on a given day).
Admittedly race 2 on Saturday was a bizarre timing for a front to hit, considering the races are only 15mins long, but that is racing……
I actually really like the way the results end up, with FE+ guys getting better places in the overall results from finishing every race. If guys in the open fleet don’t finish races then they will get worse results…
I agree with you Brett. As I mentioned in my first comment above ( 6 ); it is only in rare circumstances that the FE+ gets in the middle, the effort to do 1 lap is comparable to 2 laps of the open fleet, and it is nice to be compared with the open fleet. Besides, if it helps you to upgrade people the system is even the better.
I guess as long as,,,,,
“”"”I actually really like the way the results end up”"”"
,,,,, then that is obviously what is most important.
I must be the only person who feels this way. Given the lack of other posts regarding this almost pointless issue.
Once again, please accept my sincerest apologies.
Would hate to rock the boat any more than I already have
Jase,
Hopefully you are overseas, otherwise you need to find a hobby to keep you entertained at 2.30am.
I think you made a great point, and that you are not the only one who feels that way. I also think the lack of online discussion is not a reflection of apathy, but rather an indication that this is a discusson to have in person.
Soon it will be Xmas holidays, when all windsurfers make go great efforts to get away from their inlaws, and spend their time wandering the shoreline in search of common minded others. Onvce our paths cross we can have a real discussion regarding the format of the results. Brett changed the format last year because of a similar issue with combining slalom and formula results, I expect he will consider any further changes that we propose.
JB
Hey John, I always look forward to meeting up with you. Would hate to waste the opportunity for a beer and some good “CRACK”, because of this topic.
NB (CRACK [spelling?]- Irish expression for good time, not drug related)
Oh, and yes i’m in Asia for work. Late night hobbies here are easy to find. ;-)
Merry Xmas everyone
That would be “craic” then.
Remember – the 27th. Yoghurt truck hitting a brick wall.
Happy Xmas mate, hope Santa is good to you and brings you everything you want.
JB
Hy Formula sailors,
In Greece for first time in ‘08 we started the Formula + categorie after Jason Roditis told us about the success you have in Australia with the newcomers in that sport.
But during the first events we started having the same problems like you about scores in the overall list, so the only solution for us was to count the best Formula + sailor always behind the last Formula open sailor at the overall score.
But with this situation you do not really give the push to the Formula+ sailor to become a better sailor and to compare him self with the other of the open class.
For that reason we change the rule for the F+ into doing 2 rounds instead of one and compromise to shortener the race from 1600m to 1200m of the marks and it works perfectly and everybody seems to be satisfied with that desicion and the F+ competitor can really compare him self now with the others but still getting his medal of the F+ categorie.
Sorry for my bad english.
Secretary of GREEK FORMULA WINDSURFING ASSOCIATION
Christian Frey
web site http://www.fwa.gr